Everyone is getting a 9 lately. It's the 'in' thing to do right now. Cheap practice gun, and a compact carry piece that is batter, ballistically, than the .380 (aka 9mm short) and the .38 Special.
Why is it better than the .38 Special, though? The case is smaller looking side by side. 9mm is better than .38+P even. The projectile is essentially the same, the bottle the .38 has to store propellent is larger, how did this Luger Parabellum fella get more oomph in his cartridge 110 years ago?
The case on a .38 is a whole centimeter longer! And it has, generally, half the foot pounds of force compared to the 9mm.
I suspect the .38 standard was because the parent casing was developed off of black powder catridges. While it COULD be stuff with more powder that would be bad for guns not designed for that force. So the standard stays what it was originally. Just like the 9mm stays the same. The .38 Special was only developed 3 years earlier than the 9mm parabellum.
And .38 WAS ramped up to the .357 Magnum. MUCH more oomph than .38 or 9mm. They made a longer case for the .357 to keep the round from fitting in a .38 pistol. That whole gun-explodey thing was the worry, I understand. But perceived recoil is much more severe in the .357.
What I'm saying is, why wasn't the .38+P done up to match the teeny weeny 9mm? Does the fact that the 9mm is for a semi-automatic help? That 9mm was specced to accept a LOT of pressure, too. More than any of the .38/9mm projectile cartridges save the .357 Sig.
1) Studies have shown that aim is far more important than the difference between say 9mm and .45.
ReplyDelete2) Modern 9mm rounds are far more effective than they were back in the day.
3) Price. The more you shoot the better your aim and you will shoot more if it's cheaper.
4) 9mm firearms selection is way better. If you like a 1911 architecture you can buy a quality version in 9mm.
5) It is easier to control a 9mm. Second shots are better.
6) Capacity is higher, weighs less. When you want a bullet hose.
7) Good round for smaller people. Woman, children and jockies.
Please note that I did not say more concealable. Another millimeter does not mean shit.
That's nice anon, but not really the subject of this post. I only talked about 9mm projectiles and never even mentioned .45ACP.
ReplyDelete"Why is it better than the .38 Special, though?"
ReplyDeleteBecause it is a mag fed semi auto. Not a wheel gun round. No other reason really.
"What I'm saying is, why wasn't the .38+P done up to match the teeny weeny 9mm? Does the fact that the 9mm is for a semi-automatic help?"
Answered your own question.
But why? Assume one shot. A mag fed 9mm and a .38 special revolver both fire that first shot just fine. But the oomph behind the single teeny 9mm is twice as much as the oomph behind the .38 that is coming out of a cartridge 10 mm longer.
ReplyDeleteIf I go wheel gun it's .357 mag.
ReplyDeleteBallistics being a wash I carry what I can conceal easiest.
I think that it is more about the evolution of usage that makes one more popular than another.
I just think it odd that at about the same time 100+ years ago 2 cartridges were developed that would require a whole new class of firearm, one guy stuff all sorts of powder and pressure into one .38 in a smaller brass bottle than another guy did for a much larger brass bottle and then that standard was cemented in place.
ReplyDeleteIt's not like the .38 Special guy couldn't have achieved the same performance with only a tweak of propellant quantity. I wait for someone more knowledgeable to chime in to tell me that it was designed to also be backward compatible and .38 Special was made to also go in .38 Long Colt or summat.
More knowledgable than me. Maybe I knew once but it didn't take. Me being a slow-head and all.
ReplyDeleteThe reason for the pressure/velocity limitations of the .38 special is that it started life as a black powder cartridge. If I remember correctly, the original charge was 26.3 grains. That also explains the size of the case.
ReplyDeleteIf you loaded a .38 to 9mm pressures, you could tear up an older revolver. Even +P rounds are risking damage in some cases (older Airweights, pre-heat-treat M&Ps...)
ReplyDeleteIt's the same reason that the big ammo companies load the .45-70 so softly in their smokeless powder loads. Despite the fact that Buffalo Bore loads up magnum-like performance in the same caliber. Drop one of those Buffalo Bore loads into grandpa's flop-top Springfield and you've just made yourself a pipe bomb.
(.38 Special was derived from the .38 Long Colt and intended to supplant it in military usage.)
ReplyDeleteSo, a confirmed backward compatibility issue that the Luger people didn't have to consider when making the 9mm.
ReplyDeleteWhat about .38 Super?
ReplyDeleteI think you need to talk to Georg Luger. Keep in mind, the 9mm was basically the 7.62/.30 Luger Cartridge, a Bottlenecked Design that had it's case straightened out for some more "Oomph" at the request of the Imperial German Army. Remember all those Broomhandle Mausers that had the "9" carved into the grips?
ReplyDeleteJohn Malloy wrote a great article about this topic in the 1995 Gun Digest. Basically, it came down to Hugo Borchardt and Smokeless powder. In fact, some people think that there could not have been semi-auto pistols w/o Smokeless Powder. The Cartridge length would have been too long for the Pistol handles if all we had was Black Powder.
As to the .38 Special, well, look at all those .38 S+W Top Breaks out there at the time. If they had just stretched the case, and kept the same Bullet Diameter, some of those designs might not have stayed together in the hand. .38 S+W runs about 15,000 cup max, while standard .38 Special runs about 19,000 cup max. That's a lot of difference for a Top Break to handle. Compare that to the 9mm 36,000 cup max, or the .380's 19,000 cup max (Speer #10 reloading Manual). Plus, we then had the .38 Colt out there, plus some other Proprietary Cartridges. So, if you START with the Max Black Powder available at the time, then try to put in Smokeless Powder, you'll have a lot of space in that case. I bet you there was a LOT of "Earth Shattering KaBooms" taking place in the various Arms Factories while they were experimenting with "Retrofitting" the Black Powder Cartridges to Smokeless.
Smokeless Powder made all the difference. And the AMERICAN Genius, John Moses Browning (PBUH!) took advantage of it. After all, why design Revolvers when one can do so much more with Semi-Auto Pistols?
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html
Well it's not JUST because it was designed for use in a semi-auto. There's a plethora of 9xNOT-19 rounds with the same power for semi-autos that didn't really catch on.
ReplyDelete.38 Super anyone? It even combines the 1911 love with a 9mm round. Widely available, but still a niche item.
.38 special is a lengthened .38 Long Colt, no backwards compatibility there. I don't think that's what you meant, but just being pedantic.
.38 Special was designed as a black-powder round, thus the longer case than the designed for smokeless from the beginning 9x19. This also explains the pressure and velocity disparities too. As was pointed out, old black-powder guns don't take kindly to loading the case to full with smokeless.
New .38+P loads do emulate 9x19 but require guns made for it. The larger case and the wider form of a revolver work against it even if ballistics are identical. Ease of loading and capacity rear their heads in here too.
Trivial Pursuit: All .38 Super is "+P". If it weren't it would be ".38 Colt Auto". Discuss... ;)
ReplyDeleteAlso when comparing cartridge pressure, remember its inverse to cartridge capacity. IE make a smaller capacity case, fire with the same propellants and pressure goes up. Look at pressures from 10MM and 40S&W to compare.
ReplyDelete38 special was designed off the 38 long colt brass, length added to keep it from being loaded in its stead, and was still using blackpowder. The world of firearms was a very different place 110-120 years ago.
9mmx19 Luger/parabellum was being built for a new class of guns, with a new propellent without retrofitting concerns (much like the 45ACP in that regard). Gave greater freedom to the designers.
People have tried to do a similar thing these days with less success... think 45GAP. Attempt to "modernize" the 45ACP with newer propellents to fit in smaller frame pistols, but so far it hasn't exactly gone anywhere.