The more I think about, the more I realize how woefully inadequate the training I received in the Navy. They decided I was 'qualified' with the pistol.
There was no safety training other than keep it pointed down range. No classroom training about how it operated. No cleaning or field stripping training. Nothing on what do if it stopped running. They didn't even tell me what that little thumb safety on the side did.
"But T-Bolt! You were in the Navy! Not infantry. And it wasn't even a combat ship!"
True. But we pulled into various ports around the region. A lot. Sailors thought it was because they deserved a liberty trip ashore. That was just a benny. The reason? We were a supply ship. Underway replenishment. Dozens of tractor trailers had to come alongside at a dock connected to shore so that WE could then zip those pallets out to a carrier group. So watch standing on that ship at the brow was very common. With multiple poorly trained armed sailors and officers. What if a large crowd of locals got all uppity and jihad broke out unexpectantly? The Cole was anchored out. You needed a boat to attack it. You'd just need feet to get to our boat.
Multiply my poor training conditions by all those other millions of personnel. An NRA basic course is an order of magnitude better.
Of course, training may be better now. And who knows what is truly typical average training for armed watchstanders. I suspect it is better. I fear it is much much worse.
Big lines at the polls here
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Well, and our precinct, at least. I'm not sure what that means - there's
no way that Kamala Harris will win deep red Manatee County, Florida. But
Repub...
25 minutes ago
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I went to Navy boot camp in Orlando, FL (now closed) in fall of 1980; we learned how to field-strip 1911's and shot them, albeit with .22 conversion kits instead of full .45ACP, with the exception of the two boots who shot the highest scores with the .22's. They got to shoot .45ACP for official pistol qualification and received the Expert Pistol ribbon if they succeeded.
Later on one of the ships I was deployed on (USS Deyo, DD-989) I got to shoot 1911, 12-gauge riot gun (can't recall if they were Remington or Mossberg) and M14's. We didn't learn to strip or clean those, however.
Good point about the USS Cole and your ship's situation...
Training and emphasis waxes and wanes like everything else in the Fleet. Sometime after 9/11 it got ...well,decent anyway. By the time Younger Son went to Boot Camp in 05it was back to the "same 'ol". He was roundly criticized for using a Weaver instead of a locked-out isoceles. Since he's a SeaBee and was going to deploy I sent him to Thunder Ranch for remedial training to compensate for the inadequacies of NCF training. I was overseas myself and not in a position to train him for carbine etc. I did get him in front of one of our SF Medics for Combat Lifesaver one-on-one.
Back in the early 80's I was Gunnery Officer on a "Nuclear Capable" warship (I can neither confirm or deny...). With the support of the CO and some creative bookkeeping RE our training ammo, my watchstander qual course used 400 rounds of .45 per man (Destroyers were NOT coed in those days) and like amounts of 12 ga and 7.62 out of the -14's. We did malf drills but didn't teach field-stripping as a rule.
Our shotguns were good 'ol 870's though we got some Mossbergs later (a step down IMO).
Talking to folks on AD now, the Fleet has gone back to the bad 'ol days. My son is now a First Class and teaches SCW using training and experience from his first deployment in getting ready for the next. Prayers for him and his folks gratefully accepted.
Hell, I WAS Infantry, a Drill Sergeant, and on the brigade pistol team. Ran pistol qualification ranges as OIC (yes, an NCO can be the "Officer In Charge" - if he's the guy who signed for the range and is in charge of all the range safeties, AIs, ammo detail, and shooters. ). Been NCOIC of the reaction force tasked with responding to alarms at the arms rooms (so my duty weapon was a pistol).
I got ZERO official Army training on pistols, other than reading the FM before conducting a class -- ALL of my knowledge and skill was stuff I brought with me into the Army.
In general, the Navy has a greater need for universal pistol training. Except for that ONE detail on the reaction force, and while I was on the pistol team, I was NEVER assigned a pistol. I stood guard duty with a rifle or a mounted MG. Sailors are far more likely to stand watch with a pistol, and a pistol is a lot handier for them in tight corridors (same reason I had a 1911 on the reaction force -- I had to be able to drive, I had a team of privates with rifles if we needed firepower, so my pistol was actually only a PDW.)
Get Oleg to tell you about his dad's "qualification" with the Makarov sometime.
I think what they were looking for was the ability to successfully empty the magazine with the muzzle pointing downrange. If more than 50% actually hit the berm, then you made "Sharpshooter"...
Your Navy shooting experience sounds a lot like mine. The "range" was closed when I went through bootcamp in Orlando, and I only had the chance to shoot a pistol when the armory wanted to get rid of all that crappy .45 ammo to make room for the new 9mm coming in. Our sub was given 20 1911's and about 20K in ammo and told NOT to bring any of the ammo back. Other than magazine issues, didn't see one of those pistols have major issues after all that ammo through them.
Great Lakes, Fall of 1976, Single Shot Remington Target Rifles ONLY! When I asked the Chief who was in Charge why so little training, he shook his head and said "It's SUPPOSED to be handled in the Fleet nowadays." He then said 'We are now just supposed to INTRO to the Recruits what a Rifle is, and run through Basic Gun Safety. Half of the People who come in have never even held a Gun in their hands. At least this way we can teach them that Firearms are not Toys." When I told him that I was on the High School Rifle Team, and could I be excused, he got THAT SMILE (you Vets out there know what I Mean), walked over to my D. I., talked a bit, then came back to me. "I'm short handed. Want to help out? It's okay with your D.I." Guess who said yes?
But when one is dragging out Recruits to help teach the Military how to shoot, there's something wrong.
When son went through Basic a few years back(Army) the handgun 'training' amounted to classroom for a couple of hours, followed by "Take your magazine and move to the firing line; point that anywhere but downrange and I'll kick your ass." Fire the one mag, and that was it.
Standing watch with an empty, beat to hell, WWII era .45 and two mags with 5 rounds each on your belt.
Good times...good times....
I don't know about you, but..somehow that magazine always magically made its way into the pistol when the OOD was "looking the other way." Especially when we were in port in Israel and Greece.
I miss those M-14's we had. When I'M the expert shot in my unit...there's is a huge lack of training.
We had E-5's qualifying with M-16's before my reserve unit, an EXPEDITIONARY UNIT, was deployed to Kuwait. One of them not only failed to qualify, her paper had no holes in it and the target next to hers had no extra holes. At 25 Yards. When 9/11 happened, I was on special duty at the local Navy/Marine Corp reserve center. Before the wreckage of the 2nd plane hit the ground, the Marines had the armory open, doors locked, and guards being posted. They needed watchstanders while they did their job and called up more Marines. Out of 25-30 sailors, 3 of us were qualified on anything... Two from my unit, including me, and a Master-at-Arms. And don't get me started on the Army Center attached to us. They refused to arm their guards and so I had the pleasure of having a bird colonel ask me,"Why in HELL is an enlisted sailor having to stand armed sentry on one of MY Army's gates?" I just shrugged and said, "Go ask them sir." He was not happy.
The official Army pistol qual course is kind of a joke, also. Shooting at the enormous E-type popup silhouettes, none of which will be further downrange than 30m and some of which may be as close as 7m, scored only hit/miss, the "marksman" badge can be earned with 50% hits and 50% clean misses on targets that will mostly be 10m, 15m, or 20m out. Even the "expert" badge only requires 26 hits out of 30 total, and over 40 rounds are issued to accomplish this. In my opinion anyone who can't clean the current Army pistol course with thirty rounds, no misses, no alibis, shouldn't be carrying a handgun into harm's way.
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