Thursday, June 7, 2012

9mm vs. 11.5mm

I guess Jeff Cooper has been dead long enough and people are really starting to believe that he isn't coming back.  Everybody and his Uncle is switching from .45 to 9mm these days.  But now that the Colonel is dead fer sure they don't have to worry about getting made fun of doing so.

Plenty of reasons to do so.  But there were plenty of good reasons to do so in 1989, too.  What 'new' reasons are there besides the absence of Cooper's ferocious visage looking down upon you, disapprovingly??

People are convinced that the ammo makers have dialed it in on the self-defense bullets that are out these days.  The Miami shootout is almost 30 years ago and decent ammo has been readily available for 25.

If .380 was good enough to tote in 2008 then 9mm is just fine in 2012, right?

Double stack magazines are arguably better now than in the days of Lethal Weapon and Die Hard.  Personally, ammo cap has never been a selling point for me.

About the only thing that could stop this drift toward the Europellet is to have the cabal of gunstore clerks meet and develop a new patter.  Instead of recommending J Frames to new female shooters/purchasers, they could go, "You're a girl, you need a girl gun like the S&W M&P 9mm.  M&P stands for 'Mauve and Pink' because we can get that gun for you customized in those colors.   It might also stand for 'Metrosexual and Progressive.'  Either way, a perfect Lady's Gun."  Yeah, those kinds of gunstore clerks.  But don't dismiss their influence on the general public...

What?

17 comments:

Tam said...

You know that Pat Rogers got his paychecks signed by Jeff Cooper, right?

Farm.Dad said...

LOL

New Jovian Thunderbolt said...

Of course, Tam! That why he waited til now.

Imagine and angry, zombie-Cooper on a 3 wheel ATV coming after you for going all traitor Euro-pellet... ~shiver~

Matt Groom said...

"I guess Jeff Cooper has been dead long enough and people are really starting to believe that he isn't coming back."

That made me laugh. Just think: Zombie Col. Cooper. Old school horror meets old school tactics. I think very little of what is now popular would meet his approval.

No disrespect to the Colonel, as it was one of my life's great honors to meet and have dinner with him and his wife in their home in AZ a few months before his death. He was not a fan of semi-auto rifles, generally, and saw no benefit to modern tactical-sporting designs. The AWB was set to sunset that year, and he had no opinion on it.

Like Col. Applegate before him, Col. Cooper's contributions are timeless and insightful, but they are not the apex of a constantly evolving art. New tactics, techniques, and technologies will always emerge that will turn previous styles on their ear, and I personally feel that improvements in bullet technology and the removal of restrictions on magazine capacity have largely rendered debates about caliber diameter null and mostly void.

Weer'd Beard said...

Good point Matt.

I was talking with my gun-maker buddy Wally about how the "Cooper Scout" easily could be achieved or bettered with an AR-10 pattern lightened up with an ACOG.

And he built it!

Of course the Scout Rifle is still a great concept, but the world has come a long way since Cooper had the first one built off a Mauser action with wood furniture and a forward-mount scope.

mikeee said...

An AR-Scout in .308, that meets the length, weight, optics and accuracy criteria desired in an all-around utility rifle, sounds great to me.

I don't think there would be a peep of complaint about it from anyone involved in the original concept (no names will be mentioned) except as to reliability. How many shots can go through a Mauser action versus an AR action without degraded accuracy or reliability?

Daniel E. Watters said...

Just to be pedantic, the preferred metric designation is a toss-up between 11.25mm and 11.43mm. It depends on the country. 11.25mm is the traditional caliber designation based on bore dimensions measured land-to-land, while 11.43mm is the direct metric conversion from 0.45".

Boat Guy said...

" An AR-Scout in .308, that meets the length, weight, optics and accuracy criteria..." Sounds a LOT like an AR-10A2 Carbine with an ACOG - the piece I traded my Steyr Scout for...dunno if it exactly "meets weight" and I really don't care.

Matt Groom said...

I was gonna say "It should be 11.47, since the average between .451" and .452" in Metric is 11.47" but I decided against it. But then I changed my mind.

Kirk Parker said...

Of course Cooper's achievements don't represent the pinnacle of everything--but can you think of a single person whose contributions moved the ball further forward than his did? He's as much a standout in the training and use of firearms as JMB (pbuh) is in the design and manufacturing arena.

Daniel E. Watters said...

Matt: That is true, but you can actually find foreign-manufactured .45 ACP firearms and factory ammunition marked with the designations I listed.

Matt Groom said...

Silly foreigners.

Frank W. James said...

Yeah, well in another 30 years someone will be arguing the same arguments in favor of the 5.7x28mm versus that old antique cartridge, the 9x19mm...

All The Best,
Frank W. James

Tam said...

Frank,

Actually, looks like 5.7's pretty much already a fizzle; it can't get love from Facklerites or Sanowists. (And HK's version isn't exactly catching on like wildfire, either.)

Jerry said...

I have a 452 as wallpaper on my 'puter, and I usually carry an 82. That said, I can't knock the euro-pellet. It can match a .357 anything, bullet wise. But.....

Frank W. James said...

Jerry: I want to see someone duplicate the Keith .357 Mag with the 173 gr. hard cast SWC over 13.0 grs of 2400 in a 9x19mm in terms of muzzle velocity or depth of penetration.

Only I'll watch 'em from a SAFE distance...

Tam: I'm not even sure that H&K is even making any 4.6mm guns right now. It's THAT lame, but the 5.7 still has some adherents in LE...

All The Best,
Frank W. James

Ryan said...

The thing is that people get fixated on the era they grew up in. Back when all that was available was FMJ or lead round nose a big heavy bullet had a real advantage. However that era is long gone. With modern defensive ammo the caliber debate of 9mm vs .40 v .45 vs .357mag vs .38 is pretty much a mute point.

I went 9mm for cheaper more common (sorry in the real world it is more common, .45 guys do yell loud though;), guns hold more bullets, lower recoil equals easier to get faster follow up shots, flatter shooting, thinner pistols, I am bored of listing reasons now.

Still do have a .45 but it is for sale.